The Buzzer blog » Behind the scenes with Trolley Overhead

March 4, 2010, 11:00 am

Behind the scenes with Trolley Overhead

A Trolley Overhead crew: Miles (driver), Doug, and Al (chargehand). Photo by Charlotte Boychuk.

Yes, the Olympics are over, but I still have a couple of articles left to share about our work! This is another article is by Charlotte Boychuk from CMBC’s employee communications team, and it recognizes the great work of our trolley overhead division — the folks who make sure the wires for the trolleys work!

A Trolley Overhead crew repairs lines at Homer and Hastings on Friday, February 19.

Trolley lines stay in good shape thanks to Trolley Overhead crews checking and repairing as needed all the line switches, as part of a regular 6-month inspection just prior to the Olympics.

To ensure the system stays energized during the Olympics, Trolley Overhead also had coverage in the downtown core from 7 a.m. to 2:30 a.m. every day, plus, an additional floater crew standing by to handle trouble calls outside of the downtown core.

David, the Trolley Overhead Manager said his team is working hard to keep the system live in the Olympic zone, and despite road closures in many areas, they can still respond to an incident within 15 minutes, even less on Wednesdays and Thursdays when two crews provide extra coverage in the downtown core.

Doug and Al. Photo by Charlotte Boychuk.

Regular maintenance continues in outlying areas, such as here at University Boulevard where Trolley Overhead crew members Doug and Al begin repairing a switch that came down a couple of months ago thanks to a fallen tree.

“The Rectifier Crew prepared a replacement cable, so we can now finish putting up the mast arm and tying the wire here,” said Doug.

Trolley Overhead services over 371 kilometres of dual running wires in an area that extends the complete city of Vancouver and a portion of Burnaby – from UBC to Metrotown, and from Burrard Inlet to the Fraser River. These are just a few more ways that we continue to rise to our Olympic Commitment!

Olympics and Paralympics | Jhenifer Pabillano - Buzzer Editor

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By Andrew S, March 4, 2010 @ 7:27 pm

Ohh! So that’s what those trucks are for… :P I haven’t seen one in a while (maybe 8 years ago?) but i still remember waht they look like :D

It is truly amazing what all these maintenance crews do for us!

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By Jordan, March 4, 2010 @ 8:33 pm

Speaking of the trolley bus wires, I’ve always been curious if there is an operational cost saving in running electric trolley buses vs diesel buses. I can see the cost of electricity being much cheaper than the diesel fuel, but perhaps the maintenance cost for the over head wires counters that. Does anyone have any insight into this?

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By Ric, March 4, 2010 @ 11:13 pm

Jhen, I was at the 22nd street stn bus loop waiting for a bus today and noticed that a mechanic was changing a turn signal bulb on a bus at the bus loop. You told me that repairs such as replacing burnt out bulbs are done at the transit centers when they are reported by the operators or when the bus goes into scheduled maintenance. So to my understanding all minor repairs such as bulb changes are done at the transit centers. This now leads into a question that I have once I saw this happen at a bus loop.

Why was the burnt out bulb getting replaced at the bus loop?

Shouldn’t it have been done once the bus went back to the transit center?

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By Rob P, March 4, 2010 @ 11:37 pm

If I recall they have teams that can come out and do minor bus repairs on the spot, especially something simple like a door malfunction or burnt out bulbs, why not fix it sooner. It helps greatly with the perception of the transit system as being well maintained =)

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By Cliff, March 5, 2010 @ 12:12 am

The repair is really a very minor one to do, yet involves a great deal of safety.

Had the repair not been able to take place, Ric, I suspect any driver using that particular bus would have to use hand signals. Certainly not an option with a transit vehicle.

@Jordan, I suspect operationally TransLink saves some money, but the savings isn’t as big as Seattle or San Francisco because trolleybuses there are run on the hills which is where they excel at in efficiency when compared to a conventional diesel. The issue with trolleybuses is the huge cost to install them. The cost is sometimes so big, an LRT or Streetcar can be justified instead of new trolleybus service!

It’s too bad the 19 bus wasn’t extended all the way to New Westminster during the Metrotown extension. It would cost too much now, but 6th and 8th Streets in New Westminster are ideal for trolleybus routes because of the steep hills.

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By Henry, March 5, 2010 @ 12:34 am

I believe trolleys cost more to operate than a diesel bus per KM. i remember some numbers were out regarding this a few years ago and i think back then it cost $1.20 a KM for trolley versus $0.70 a KM for diesel buses. Trolley buses also cost double compared to a diesel bus. A trolley cost $1 Million each versus the same in diesel is $500,000. Novas are a little bit cheaper and that is why translink is buying fleets of novas rather then new flyer diesels.

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By Cliff, March 5, 2010 @ 1:36 am

Don’t you get another 10 years of life out of them, however?

Trolleybuses are certainly more expensive than diesels, but with the extended life you get out of them, that figure is closer to 800k or so.

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By Dave 2, March 5, 2010 @ 8:20 pm

On the minus side… the overhead can be unsightly, look at Granville and Robson, or 41st and Victoria. It may not be a popular opinion, but I prefer the way Cambie looks now north of King Ed. On the other hand, visual pollution of complicated overhead junctions beats air pollution from diesel engines.

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By ;-), March 5, 2010 @ 8:55 pm

Overhead trolley visual issues was one reason UBC and Stanley Park didn’t service for several decades.

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By Tessa, March 5, 2010 @ 11:17 pm

I love overhead trolley wires for some raeson. I think they make the city feel more connected, it reminds me that I can easily get all over any time i feel like it. I know it’s silly and subconscious in some ways, but I like it.

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By Stefan, March 6, 2010 @ 2:06 pm

Tessa wrote;

“I think they make the city feel more connected,”

I’ve always been fascinated by our trolley wires, but I could never really sum it up in a few words. I think you hit the nail on the head.

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By Reva, March 6, 2010 @ 8:10 pm

Hey, for all you trolley bus lovers, I’ve just been reading a book from VPL that you should try to get a hold of sometime, it’s called “Vancouver’s Trolley Buses 1948-1998 Celebrating a Half-Century of Service”, by Heather Conn, published by The Department of Corporate Communications, BC Transit, (c) 1998. It is chock-full of all kinds of history and tidbits and photos. It’s pre-Translink and pre-latest-batch-of-trolleys, but there’s lots about the old Brills and Flyers and even some demo trolleys tried out over the years. Just thought I’d pass that along!

I find those intersections with huge webs of trolley wires fascinating! It’s art! :)

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By Sean, March 7, 2010 @ 8:22 am

This reply is for “Ric”, who was asking why a burnt out light was getting fixed at 22 St Station: Many buses our out for well over 15 hours a day, and this results in quite a few “trouble calls” to deal with various mechanical faults through out the day… CMBC has always had Service Trucks that go out and fix “minor” problems, and has recently expanded on this model to create a fairly new ROAD SERVICES department to deal with the ever increasing requests for repairs…
Major problems/repairs result in Bus Changes out on route, taking the “Bad Order” bus back to the transit centres for attention…
Sometimes lights do burn out half way through the day, or other problems develop during the service day… Bus 8059, for example, was fine during the morning pre trip at the Richmond depot, but would not restart once parked out at the ferry for 20 minutes. The Service Truck came out and gave it a jump start, and off he went for 4 or 5 hours of service, when the same problem happened again, resulting in a new bus being brought out and exchanged with later in the day…
Not all problems happen, or are discovered, in the yard before heading out for the day…

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By Andrew S, March 8, 2010 @ 12:21 am

Hmm… aren’t LEDs supposed to last a while longer than regular bulbs? :D Btw, (since we’re on the topic about repairs) I’ve been noticing a lot of Nova buses where only half of the destination sign is working, for example “228 LYNN V ” and the New Flyers with the Balios yellow LED signs are really flickery sometimes and have lots of burnt-out LEDs in them. It seems like the Balios and Axion signs have lots of problems :P but Luminator is good, even though I wonder why they constantly keep going from bright to dim… :D

Back to the trolley bus topic…
Maybe instead of retiring the D40 and D60 and scraping them/sending them away because of too much pollution, convert them to TROLLEY BUS! :D

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By Ric, March 8, 2010 @ 8:05 am

Andew, LEDs do burn out. They just last longer than regular bulbs. In regards to destination signs flickering, I think it is just that the LEDs inside are on its way out. It you look carefully you will notice the the rear lights often flicker too when the bulbs are on its way out. Have you noticed that a lot of rear lights are only half lit?. This is because half of the LEDs in the bulb have burnt out. By Luminator destination signs are you referring to the green destination signs? If you are they often go from bright to dim is because those are back lit by a fluorescent tube. If they are doing this the fluorescent tube is on its way out. Those signs are LCD and not LED like the orange signs. They need to be back lit because they are too dim compared to the orange ones and without the back light they can’t be seen from a distance.

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By Ric, March 8, 2010 @ 8:45 am

Andrew, To add to my previous comment, if the green destination signs aren’t back lit they also can’t be seen easily at night when it is dark out. Have you noticed that on buses with green destination signs, the signs are often hard to read? This is because the fluorescent tube for the back light has burnt out.

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 8, 2010 @ 11:53 am

Sean, just wanted to commend you on a great answer —very illuminating, dare I say :)

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By Ric, March 8, 2010 @ 11:59 am

Jhen, How do you think Sean found the answer?

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 8, 2010 @ 11:59 am

Ric: Sean is an operator out of Richmond Transit Centre.

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 8, 2010 @ 12:00 pm

Sean: This reminds me—I should ask you to put CMBC after your name for future posts! I just realized only I knew you were an operator.

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By Ric, March 8, 2010 @ 12:27 pm

Jhen or Sean, If a bus has two turn signal bulbs at the back (one on the top of the brake light and one on the bottom of the brake light) and just one of the two bulbs burns out can’t the bus still operate for the rest of the day or at least back to the transit center before the bulb is changed if one out of the two bulbs are still working?

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By Cliff, March 8, 2010 @ 12:31 pm

From a legal and safety perspective, I don’t see why not.

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 8, 2010 @ 4:27 pm

Wow: you’re all in luck! I forwarded your questions on to our fleet management group for an answer, and one very kind colleague took the time to weigh in on ALL of them.

There’s certainly some lively discussion on the buzzer blog!

Some quick additions to Sean’s good summary of the new Road Services group: CMBC can gain some efficiencies by performing minor repairs (such as changing light bulbs) when the bus is at a bus loop, rather than at the garage. The transit garages are large facilities, which leads them to have some inefficiencies. When a driver drops off a Bad Order (“BO”) bus, they usually leave a very short description of the problem on a card in the bus. A supervisor will walk out to see the bus, and assign the work to a mechanic/electrician/bodyperson. The tradesperson will then walk out from the shop, find the bus somewhere in the yard, drive it into the shop, assess the problem (the short description left by the driver is sometimes inadequate for a tradesperson to identify the fault), repair it, drive it back out to the lot, and then walk back into the shop. Phew! For a 5-minute light bulb repair, it sure took a long time—between the walking, driving, repairing, and parking, it probably took half an hour. If a tradesperson can get the work done while a bus is at the bus loop, then there’s some good savings to be had, which counts in taxpayer dollars. Also, the tradesperson gets to talk to the driver, so they can figure out the exact problem and fix it—sometimes, if a description isn’t good enough, at the shop a tradesperson will drive a bus into the shop, can’t find the problem, and drives it back out—no work done, but still a half-hour of labour wasted.

As for safety, the law requires that we have one turn signal light at the back of the bus, not the doubling-up of lights that we have. If a light burns out, the bus is totally safe. As far as a bus being legal goes, it simply requires that all the lights be functional when the bus leaves the yard in the morning—the law recognizes that light bulbs, when they die, will likely die sometime during the day, without a driver noticing it.

LED lights versus incandescent: LED bulbs themselves are generally expected to last at least 10x as long as an incandescent. However, there are more problems than just the bulbs—the bulb sockets will have connectors attaching them to the power from the bus, and these connectors can corrode. LED lights have some circuitry that drives them, which can also fail. Often when you see a brake light where half of the light has burned out, it’s because the plastic lens has cracked and allowed water into the housing, which eventually corrodes or shorts out the wiring. We usually have very long warranties on the LED signals.

Destination signs: on our new buses (Nova (Axion signs)and New Flyer (Luminator signs)), their LED destination signs have long warranties. I can’t publicly say how many years as the contractual details are privileged, but we’re very happy with the length that we negotiated. With both the Luminator and Axion signs, they have daylight sensors in them, so that they emit an appropriate amount of light—in the sun, they need to pump out full brightness so that they can be seen. In the shade, and especially at night, less brightness is needed, so the LEDs dim automatically. This dimming provides a few advantages—one is less electricity consumption, which means less fuel consumption; another is reduced LED temperature, which extends the lifespan of the LEDs. The old flip-dot destination signs (I think they’re Balios signs) have an awful lot of mechanical components, and are lit with fluorescent lights, so they’re more prone to failure.

Costs for trolleys versus diesels:
I performed some analyses on trolley vs. diesel buses over the last couple of years. Electricity to run trolleys costs about one-quarter the cost of diesel, which completely makes up for the difference in the price of the buses. Lifetime maintenance costs are expected to be about 30% higher on trolleys. Trolleys are expect to last 20 years, compared to 17 years for a diesel. A trolley bus costs almost $1M, while a Nova diesel is about $400K. After all’s said and done, and accounting for the time value of money, we expect that trolleys will cost about 8% more than diesels. The current generation of hybrid buses, costing about $600K each, is expected to have a life-cycle cost almost identical to that of a diesel.

No complex subject is ever complete without some footnotes, though:
-The cost of maintaining the trolley overhead adds another ~2% to the trolleys’ life cycle cost.
-Trolley buses are put into our most punishing urban routes, averaging almost twice as many door openings as one would expect over the life of an average diesel bus—this means that for the diesel buses to be operated on trolley routes, they’d stop-and-start much more often than they already do, which would result in much greater brake wear and much greater fuel consumption. As a result, the fuel cost comparison (one-quarter the cost for trolleys) is actually skewed in favour of diesel buses.
-Trolley buses don’t pollute the air, and mostly use electricity produced by hydro power.
-Trolley buses are much quieter.

As always, sorry for the long-winded response!

Btw, I told him that we love such long-winded responses :)

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By Cliff, March 8, 2010 @ 4:46 pm

Wow. I was way off on my expectation on the lifetime of trolleys as opposed to diesels. I also hadn’t given much thought to the fact that Vancouver trolleys are operated on some of the region’s busiest routes.

Perhaps this could be balanced by running the trolleys as 135s out to SFU? Half the route is already wired for such an express service. :p

I’m glad the buses do go through repeated checks and balances to make sure that simple common sense fixes are done. This in contrast to the many drivers out there who drive with signal and brake lights burnt out, often without knowing any better! It’s all part of having higher standards for commercial vehicles.

I once saw an SUV with both brake lights out and the cars passing did not wave at the driver with all five fingers!

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By Andrew S, March 8, 2010 @ 11:00 pm

Ohh another question, about the trolley wires that used to be for the 34 Hastings Express: are they also maintained regularly along with the regular ones? Because they aren’t used anymore.

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By Jordan, March 9, 2010 @ 1:40 am

Thanks for the excellent analysis of trolley buses vs diesel buses. And also he doesn’t even mention anything about the faster acceleration of the trolleys :) From what I read, I definitely say they’re worth it; the more the better!!! It’d be great to get trolleys back on Cambie.

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By Derek Cheung CMBC, March 9, 2010 @ 6:43 am

Further to the excellent posting from the Fleet Management Group, while the comparison is made that a diesel is expected to last 17 years and a trolley is expected to last 20 years, recall that the previous trolley fleet arrived in 1982-83, but the last coaches were in service until 2008, a full 25 years (25% longer than expected).

The 17 year figure for diesels is proven with the current withdrawal of service of the high-floor diesels, which arrived in 1991-92.

Trolley bodies can last longer due to the absence of the constant engine vibration which shakes and rattles the coach.

Regarding destination signs (one of my favorite topics!) all orange LED signs are either Luminator (New Flyer trolleys, diesels, CNG’s, Orions 9277-9285) or Axion (NovaBUSes).

All green flipdot signs are Luminators with reflected lighting provided by fluorescent tubes with the exception of New Flyer artics 8001-8009, 8011-8021 which has green flipdots with a green LED behind each flipdot which provides the reflected lighting. 8010 was a test coach for CMBC’s first Balios sign (the predecessor company to Axion). Artics 8022-8101 have Balios signs, as do the Orions 9201-9276.

More info about Axion signs at http://www.axiontech.ca/en/balios.php

More info about Luminator signs at
http://luminatorusa.com/b_led.html

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By Ric, March 9, 2010 @ 10:09 am

Jhen, in reguqrds to what you said about turn signal lights and LED bulbs, I have one question on each.

Are the bad LED bulbs sent back to the manufacture for a replacement unit during the warranty period?

If the law only requires one turn signal light at the back of the bus are they doubled up just incase one bulb burns out without the driver knowing?

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By Brandon (CMBC), March 9, 2010 @ 12:50 pm

@Andrew S: The express wires on Hastings are used, but not very much. Some of the current uses would be if a 10 is running extremely late, T-Comm may tell that bus to use the express wire to get it back on time or if a bus is going NIS from Kooteney Loop, they will use the express wire if they can so that they don’t get stuck behind the in service buses. It would be nice to have an express wire on Granville St for the buses going back to the yard after rush hour is over, sometimes there will be a trolley train 5-10 buses long with a 10 at the front of the pack.

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 9, 2010 @ 1:15 pm

Andrew S:

Brandon beat me to it, but here’s a response from CMBC planning as well.

We don’t use those wires anymore specifically for any express service. However, we do use the wires occasionally for “Not In Service” buses so they can pass easily.

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By Andrew S, March 9, 2010 @ 3:15 pm

Ohh… That’s a smart idea! :)

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 9, 2010 @ 4:19 pm

Ric:

Here’s the answer from our fleet management department to your LED question.

The LEDs are doubled up at the back to maximize our visibility to nearby drivers, and to ensure the buses are totally safe even if a bulb happens to go out while a bus is on the road– the chance that a bus will try to pull out of a bus stop, into traffic, without a signal is extremely low this way.

Keeping the rear signal lights doubled up is actually a bit of a hold-over from the days of incandescent bulbs, which burned out much
more frequently.

LED brake lights, and the turn signals from the back of the bus are sent back to the manufacturer if they fail under warranty. When we first started installing LED lights, those lights were expensive, but the manufacturer sold them with a lifetime warranty– we still occasionally send those lights back to the manufacturer for replacement! The LED lights from the side of the bus, as well as the LED clearance lights are quite cheap– they would barely be worth the cost of handling the failed parts, tracking them, filing claims, and shipping them to the manufacturer, so we’ve stopped shipping them back for warranty. As
well, we find that most of them fail due to corroded wiring (not usually warrantable) rather than LED failure, so since half the warranty claims were being denied, it really wasn’t worth sending them back for warranty.

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By Ric, March 9, 2010 @ 4:30 pm

What are clearance lights? Are they the little lights at the top at the back of the bus?

Also what does it mean if the little lights at the top of the bus are flashing when a bus is at a bus stop or a bus loop?

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By Cliff, March 9, 2010 @ 4:41 pm

In the scenario brought forth by Brandon, why wouldn’t the lead driver simply stop and take the bus off the wires to allow the NIS buses to pass? It seems that this could be done at a timing point rather easily without lost time. Or is it simply a matter of it being not worth the trouble?

Does T-Comm have control of the buses down to that level? Does that mean that some co-ordination by the heritage trolley folks is needed when they bring a Bril out?

Thanks for keeping up with all our questions, Jhen (And the resident bus drivers too). If wordpress sends you an email for every post, then you must have a very full and active inbox! I occasionally get asked about the finer points of our transportation infrastructure and to come up with an answer on the spot because of something I’ve read here is simply awesome.

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By Andrew S, March 9, 2010 @ 5:24 pm

I noticed something… again :D The turn signal flashers on the new buses (Nova, new NFI) flash quite considerably slower than the older buses.

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By Sean (CMBC), March 9, 2010 @ 5:29 pm

Ric: If the rear Clearance Lights are flashing, THAT means that the parking brake has been activated/set and that the bus won’t be moving… Might be unloading a wheelchair, or maybe switching drivers, or the bus is early and is waiting out the timing point… Or a whole variety of reasons for setting the brake…

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By Ric, March 9, 2010 @ 5:40 pm

Why do the clearance lights need to flash if a bus has applyed the parking brake?

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By Sean (CMBC), March 9, 2010 @ 5:50 pm

I would say that maybe the reason is to “warn’ other buses that the bus won’t be moving right away? Might be a safety decision?
It seems that it’s only been the last 10(?) years or so that the newer buses have come with this feature, and that maybe the older low floors were programmed after the fact?
I don’t think the older high floors did this, if I rememeber correctly…

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By Derek Cheung CMBC, March 9, 2010 @ 6:11 pm

The clearance lights are set to flash as an indication to other transit operators that the parking brake is applied for any number of reasons as previously mentioned, so dont get too close!

This was done after the “yield to bus” legislation was passed where other motorists have to yield to a bus signalling its intention to pull out of a bus stop.

Prior to this legislation it was common practice for an operator to have his/her 4-way flashers (i.e. hazard lights) flashing to indicate to other operators and motorists that he/she would be there a while (usually to load or unload a wheelchair), but if the following coach pulls up too close to the first coach, other motorists in the next lane can only see the left side flashers and think that the first bus was trying to pull out of a bus stop.

Only coaches with PLC (programmable logic control) exterior lighting can be set to have flashing clearance lights. IIRC the first coaches to have PLC were the 1995 New Flyer D40LF’s. While the D40′s don’t have PLC, the few ex-CNG high-floors do have PLC and thus have flashing clearance lights, as these coaches came in 1996.

Incidentally all Novas and New Flyer 40LFR/60LFR coaches (i.e. trolleys, CNG’s, diesel and hybrid artics) have PLC-controlled turn signals too, set to flash at the rate of 1 hz.

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By Brandon (CMBC), March 9, 2010 @ 6:33 pm

@Cliff We prefer to not dewire unless we really need to and as far as I know, when the Trams fleet of trolleys is out, they just follow the bus that is in service.

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By Stefan, March 9, 2010 @ 6:53 pm

This is a very late reply to Reva, but yes, I love those complex intersections of trolley wire, as well: they are art!

Not only that, but they must also be far more complex engineering than they appear. Try stringing up a string or wire and keeping as taut as the trolley wires are…you can imagine how much tension is being carried by the span wires and the poles, and how carefully planned the placement of every span wire must be to successfully hold up all the switches and crossings.

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By Ric, March 9, 2010 @ 8:01 pm

Why don’t the clearance lights on the community shuttles flash? or do they not have clearance lights?

Sean, Derek Cheung, if I am not mistaken I don’t think that the clearance lights on the highway coaches flash. (or do they?) I have also seen a few high-floors with flashing clearance lights?

I have also noticed that when the clearance lights are flashing not all of them do. There are 5 clearance lights on the top of the bus at the back. From left to right, lights 2, 3, 4, 5 flash and light 1 doesn’t. Why is that?

I have also noticed that on some buses the rear sign says CHEC or alternates between CHK MW instead of a number? What does this mean?

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By Ric, March 9, 2010 @ 8:10 pm

Jhen, Hmm… aren’t the turn signal lights on the side of the bus (except the highway coaches and novas) incandescent bulbs rather than LEDs?

As well why do some buses contain a mix of LED and fluorescent interior lights? I was on a new NEW FLYER bus today and noticed that all the interior lights were LED except for one which was fluorescent.

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By Sean (CMBC), March 10, 2010 @ 4:30 am

Well Ric, you are quite interested in buses aren’t you?
As far as I know, all transit buses as of approx 1995 (thanks Derek) do have the flashing feature when the park brake is set/on…
The CHK MW has something to do with the programming (an error I believe)on the older signs, when the bus is Not In Service, or even a Training Vehicle, the MW CHK is displayed in the rear sign… Derek could explain it better..
It seems that with each years new bus order, that there is something different about each series of bus… The type of signs, the design of the rear window, etc..
Just look at the original 75 hwy Orions and then compare them to the 9 newer ones… Don’t really know why they ordered those 9 newer ones, we have about 20 too many of them now…

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By Ric, March 10, 2010 @ 9:43 am

Sean, Yes I am very interested in buses. In fact I want to work for the company. BTW I have been on the original Orion highway coaches and the newer ones. I don’t notice anything different about them except for a larger route number displayed on the rear sign and the fact that the back half is grey like the novas and other new buses instead of white. What do you notice is different with them?

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By Sean (CMBC), March 10, 2010 @ 11:39 am

From a drivers point of view, there are numerous differences: The brake retarder doesn’t engage on the newer ones until you actually apply pressure to the brake pedal, the front door interlock is different, the brakes won’t release unless your foot is still on the brake… The various control knobs and switches are completely different… the controls for the wheel chair lift are different, the wiper controls are electric instead of air powered… The front door automatically closes when you switch the bus from “Run” to “Park”…
The right side mirror is electric, and heated, and slightly larger… The run # lights up on the dash… The floor material is different… There is no auxillary dash sign holder on the newer ones… and many other differences too, but only like 6 or 7 years difference in model years…

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By Ric, March 10, 2010 @ 11:52 am

Sean, Hmm… With me having been on both the original and newer highway coaches don’t notice that the floor material is different. What is different with the floor material?

In terms of the flashing clearance lights I don’t think the clearance lights on the highway coaches both models flash (or do they?)

As well when the clearance lights are flashing why don’t they all flash? There are 5 clearance lights at the back from left to right: lights 2, 3, 4, 5 flash and the first on doesn’t why is that?

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By Robert, March 10, 2010 @ 2:12 pm

Re trolley trains on Granville, that could be alleviated north of 41st by installing a wire from eastbound 10th Ave. to southbound Alma St. That would permit #4, (some #9) and #17 buses that have gone out of service on the west side to travel via Alma (Dunbar) and 41st. Would also take some of the load off Broadway E/B approaching Granville, though would add traffic through Kerrisdale. And of course capital budgets are tight nowadays. Curious that the N/B Alma to W/B 10th wire only joins the W/B wire some distance west of Alma!

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 10, 2010 @ 2:29 pm

Sean, Derek, Brandon: You guys are really awesome. Thanks so much for your excellent answers! I am definitely learning a whole lot about buses and lights here :)

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By Andrew S, March 10, 2010 @ 3:24 pm

Ric: CHEC or CHK MW means “CHecK Message Writer”. (I asked this question before and was answered on this blog :D) Basically all the Rear display signs for Luminator say CHEC or CHK MW because of some programming error when the front and side displays are saying “Sorry, Not In Service” Basically, Luminator signs are on all New Flyer buses, except for one batch of the older D40LF’s and most of the D60LF’s, which have Balios signs. The old Balios signs are blank on the back sign whenever the bus is NIS (maybe because there is not enough room on the sign) The Axion signs DO say “Not In Service” on the back though. And the West Vancouver buses have their own special thing when it comes to programming signs.

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By Andrew S, March 10, 2010 @ 3:28 pm

By the way, a nice place to learn about the specs (at least some) of our buses, check out this site http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Coast_Mountain_Bus_Company

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By Sean (CMBC), March 10, 2010 @ 4:11 pm

G-r-e-a-t- link Andrew S!
Quite abit of info on that link!

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By Derek Cheung CMBC, March 10, 2010 @ 4:53 pm

Interesting how a topic about trolley overhead becomes another creature entirely!

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By Andrew S, March 10, 2010 @ 8:16 pm

@Derek Cheung CMBC: Hahaha… It always seems to change like that :P

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 11, 2010 @ 2:18 pm

Ric:

Here are the answers to your LED questions, from one of my colleagues in our fleet management department.

Re: clearance lights on community shuttles, and why some clearance lights flash and others don’t

Community Shuttles have been treated differently from the big buses in the fleet– they haven’t gotten the same amount of attention. The flashing clearance lights thing is unique to us, and I know we’ve had trouble with some bus manufacturers getting them to install it, so that
may be the case with shuttles. I’ve never ordered shuttle buses myself, though, so I’m not sure if there’s some history. With light #1 that
doesn’t blink, that’s intentional. I think we have an exemption from the Province to have buses with the blinking marker lights, and having
the left-most light on solid is how it’s safe– the blinking lights then aren’t interpreted as the bus trying to get back in traffic, and not
interpreted as having flashing hazard lights.

Re: turn signals on buses being incandescent or LED, and buses with a mix of LED/fluorescents
On all our buses up until (and including) 2001, the turn signals on the side were incandescent. I’m pretty sure the newer New Flyer buses (2006 and newer) have LED side signals. As for the mix of LED and fluorescent lighting in a bus, our 2009 Nova buses are equipped with LED lighting, with the exception of one small fixture which they weren’t able to supply with LEDs. The simple reason here is that LED interior lighting is still a VERY new product– we’re on the cutting edge with it, and have been actively researching and testing products since 2007.

I don’t think we got LED lighting in the recent New Flyer orders, but our “test fleet” for LED interior lighting was the 2006 New Flyer diesel
buses. A couple of those buses are equipped with LEDSmart lights (Canadian, with a new manufacturing plant opening in Richmond!), a
couple with “TCB” lights, a couple with “Pretoria” lights (these are the ones we bought for the hybrid Nova buses– the best light quality we’ve seen, and second-lowest cost), and one with Luminator Quantum lights.

With the TCB and LEDSmart buses, those products were designed to be easily retrofittable back-and-forth with fluorescent, so it may be that there was a problem with a test light, and not enough spare parts, so they just put a fluorescent back in.

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By Ric, March 11, 2010 @ 2:52 pm

Do the clearance lights on the highway coaches flash?

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By Ric, March 11, 2010 @ 3:52 pm

Jhen, to add to my previous question about LEDs if the LEDs in the destination signs burn out are the LEDs replaceable or does the entire destination sign need to be replaced? Also why are some destination signs only particaly working or have flickering LEDs? (Ex 410 Rail instead of 410 Railway)

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 17, 2010 @ 1:45 pm

Ric: here are the answers from my colleague at fleet management.

1) Orion wired all the clearance lights to the same circuit (on the nine new 2007 Orions), so we weren’t able to make some of them flash on their own without modifications. Modifications were planned, but I’m not sure that they were ever done. I don’t know whether the 74 x 2000 Orions flash or not.

2) I don’t know about the older buses, but anything 2006 and newer have four LED boards lined up side-by-side to make a complete destination sign– so if there’s a problem, all you have to do is replace one-quarter of the sign. The technology’s pretty neat. As to why sometimes a destination sign will be flickering, or the top half of the sign will be blank with only the bottom displaying, usually that means that something died in the sign (LEDs, LED drivers, the controller that decodes the signal to decide which LEDs to illuminate), or there’s a wiring fault, or the controller’s sending a bad signal.

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By Paul, March 18, 2010 @ 3:28 am

One thought I might add on the LED vs incandescent lights.

Of course it has been stated before the LED lights will generally last longer and they use less power to light up. Which means better fuel mileage.

Another advantage to LED. When you look at a stop/turn light the incandescent has only one bulb. Once that bulb goes the light no longer works and it becomes a safety issue.

With the LED stop/turn lights if you look at them they consist of a bunch of individual led bulbs. Chances are an individual bulb may blow but not all the bulbs at the same time. So during the day a bulb goes. The driver may not notice it. But the light is still legal. In fact the entire light is considered good so long as there is less than 25% of the bulbs burnt. Although Coast Mountain may decide to replace it before that. Ie when it happens to be in for a service. So they provide a higher safety standard on the simple fact that all the bulbs will almost never burn out at the same time. Of course other factors like corrosion can make a light not work.

One question I do have about the trolley buses. Is the air compressor electrically driven. I work as a commercial transport mechanic actually an apprentice. I’m used to diesel engines and how the compressor is mounted. Mostly Detroit Diesels, Cats, Cummins and IHC engines. Of course in all those cases the compressor is mechanically driven. But how exactly would a compressor be driven on a trolley bus which is fully electric. When the bus comes to a stop of course nothing is running. So the compressor wouldn’t be able to build up air if it was mechanically driven. Also if the compressor is electrically driven do you find that is it more efficient or less efficient than one seen on a diesel engine. I guess does the driver have to sit long waiting for a build up.

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 18, 2010 @ 12:11 pm

Paul: here’s the answer to your compressor question from fleet management.

Yes, the compressor is electrically driven on the trolleys. It always runs the compressor at the same RPM—so no need to put the engine in high idle to try to build up air first thing in the morning, and the compressor is designed to be most efficient at that particular RPM. Similarly, the rate of air buildup isn’t dependent on engine RPM. It was the same way on the old trolleys, too. A disadvantage of having it electrically-driven is that you’ve got to carry around the weight of an extra motor. Overall I think it’s more efficient, though—you don’t have the parasitic drag of the gearing to run the compressor. The steering pump is also electrically-driven, for the same reason that when you come to a stop, the propulsion motor’s stopped.

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By Ric, March 18, 2010 @ 8:07 pm

Jhen, I have a question about the interior lights on the canada line trains and skytrain cars. I am a regular canada line and skytrain (expo line) passenger.

Are the interior lights on the Canada line trains LED or fluorescent? I know the Mark 1 and white Mark 11 skytrain cars have fluorescent interior lights, but are the interior lights on the Black Mark 11s LED or fluorescent?

The following question is not lighting related but rather than posting a separate comment for this question I thought I just ask it on the same comment.

Since I only use the expo line skytrain, and for me being a fan of the classic Mark 1 trains, is it possible that all the trains used on the expo line be Mark 1 trains only? I love the bench seating much better (not available on the Mark 11s), and the distinctive acoustic acceleration sound heard from these trains. (not available on the Mark 11s either).

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By Paul, March 19, 2010 @ 2:14 am

Ric.

It wouldn’t be possible to only have MK I trains on the Expo line. For the simple reason of there not being enough MK I trains to provide the service level that the Expo line requires.

I also believe or have read somewhere that when the Evergreen line is completed. All the MK I trains are supposed to be run on the Millenium / Ever green line. And the MK II trains will be run on the Expo Line. Of course the longer term plan is to extend the platforms on the Expo Line so that 6 Car MK II trains can fit.

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By Paul, March 19, 2010 @ 2:16 am

Jhenifer

Thanks for the answer. Never thought of the steering pump as well. But it makes sense :)

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By Ric, March 19, 2010 @ 9:37 am

Paul, Hmm… I read on an earlier post in the blog that there are 150 mark 1 cars. That can make a total of 37 Mark 1 trains. Isn’t that more than enough trains for the expo line?

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By Paul, March 20, 2010 @ 4:43 am

I’m not absolutely sure. I believe while there maybe enough MK I cars to provide 4 car trains for the frequency level needed. Because there is a lower capacity compared to the 4 car MK II trains. The pphpd would not be high enough for what is needed if only MK I trains were used.

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 22, 2010 @ 9:48 am

Ric: The lights inside the SkyTrains are fluorescents.

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By Ric, March 22, 2010 @ 10:08 am

Jhen, does this include the Canada Line as well?

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 22, 2010 @ 10:10 am

Yes it does.

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By Ric, March 22, 2010 @ 10:16 am

Why are the lights on the Canada Line a different colour glow than the Mark 1 and Mark 11 skytrain cars if they are all fluorescents?

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By Ric, March 23, 2010 @ 12:26 pm

Jhen, I was on a trolley bus yesterday. When I got off I heard a “CLICK” from the trolley pole as the bus was running along the crossings of trolley wire. Why was there a “CLICK” sound? Is that caused by the trolley pole crossing the switches?

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By Paul, March 24, 2010 @ 2:52 am

If the “CLICK” sound you heard sounded like it came from above where the wires.

What you heard was the electrical current in the wires actually jumping onto the poles. Usually at intersections when the poles are crossing other wires. They tend to jump a tiny fraction. This spacing causes the arc and the “CLICK” sound.

Of course I could be wrong and you are referring to another “CLICK” sound.

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By Paul, March 24, 2010 @ 2:54 am

Ric

Different Fluorescents can give different glows. You can have soft white, cool white and so on.

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By Ric, March 24, 2010 @ 10:30 am

Paul, this is the exact “CLICK” sound I was referring to.

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By Ric, March 24, 2010 @ 10:34 am

Jhen, How is Paul finding the answers?

By the way, if buses are now using LED interior lighting, for energy savings and longer lasting, why didn’t the new skytrain cars (black mark 11 and Canada Line trains) use LED interior lighting?

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 24, 2010 @ 11:14 am

Ric: I believe Paul is another enthusiast like yourself and has probably asked the same question of others. Paul, want to add anything?

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By Paul, March 24, 2010 @ 1:47 pm

Generally my answers just come from paying attention to what is around me and trying to understand things.

In the case of the “CLICK” on the trolleys. I’ve lived my entire life in Vancouver. So even as a kid I would notice the ark and click. My curious nature basically led me to learn about electricity and what happens when there is a gap in the circuit.

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By ;-), March 24, 2010 @ 2:15 pm

I guess you don’t want to be near a trolleybus on a frosty morning. There’s lots of arcing at that time.

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By Air Jordan, March 24, 2010 @ 7:00 pm

I appreciate your comments very much and want to thank you.

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 25, 2010 @ 10:08 am

Ric: here’s the answer to your questions about LED lighting in the new SkyTrain cars.

Because LED lighting is still “developing” as a technology. There are
problems with harsh colour hues and also the initial installation costs, the energy saving is not yet that superior to the latest compact
fluorescents. No one is using LED lighting in their homes yet.

We do have a trial ongoing on one of our MK I cars with LED “tubes” to evaluate further.

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 25, 2010 @ 10:41 am

Also, I know “Air Jordan” is just a spambot, but it amuses me greatly to see the great MJ compliment the blog, so I am choosing to leave it up :)

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By Ric, March 25, 2010 @ 1:03 pm

Jhen, wouldn’t the problems mentioned about LED lighting on skytrains have the same problem when used for interior lighting in the 2009 Nova buses? I do find that the LED lighting on the buses are too harsh.

BTW, LED bulbs are now available on the market for use in homes. I actually have a couple of them in my house used on lights that are on 24/7. However, I do find that they are not all that bright even at night in the dark.

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 25, 2010 @ 1:08 pm

Ric: the same problems would apply. There may be differences in condition that make the LEDs better on the buses, however. As well, the 2009 Novas allow fluorescents to be used too so they could be changed. As my colleague from fleet management said, “The simple reason here is that LED interior lighting is still a VERY new product– we’re on the cutting edge with it, and have been actively researching and testing products since 2007.”

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By Ric, March 25, 2010 @ 1:19 pm

Jhen, BTW, I noticed that the Green Destination signs on buses have some white light shining up on them and some don’t making them hard to see in the dark. Is the White light shining on the green destination signs a fluorescent light under the sign making the signs easier to see?

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 25, 2010 @ 2:59 pm

Ric: here is the answer from fleet management.

I think the signs Ric’s referring to are the flip-dot signs on some of our older low floor coaches. The dots aren’t lit, so they’re dependent on light reflecting off of the dots for you to see them. Yes, that light is provided by fluorescent lights at night. Yes, usually if you can’t see the sign (or the number) it’s because the fluorescent tube has burned out.

When you see a light out like that, make a point to tell the driver when you get in the bus (assuming you’re getting on the bus!). The driver will write it up on the bus card, and it’ll be fixed overnight.

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By Ric, March 25, 2010 @ 3:22 pm

How were the roll signs found on some of the D60s, the retired trollies and MCI classics lit?

BTW, I know these signs are no longer used but when they were in use and new routes were introduced while these signs were in use, how were the new routes introduced into the Roll signs? Were the roll signs replaced, since they couldn’t be reprogramed like the electronic destination signs?

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By Andrew S, March 26, 2010 @ 9:50 am

The roll signs were lit by fluorescent tubes too, like the older flipdot signs. And you are probably right, they had to either change the entire roll in order to add new routes, or just print another one onto the end, since there was usually extra material in the end for new routes.

(PS: You don’t need to question my knowledge, I’m just another transit enthusiast and asked A LOT of questions :D)

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By Ric, March 26, 2010 @ 10:12 am

Were the roll signs electrically or manually operated? What I mean is were the signs scrolled through automatically with the push of a button or did the driver have to manually scroll through them by turning a crank.

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By Ric, March 26, 2010 @ 10:21 am

To add to my previous about destination signs, since the LED destination signs can fail and will then require replacement of that LED board, can the flip-dot destination signs fail as well other then the fluorescent tube burning out, which will then require replacement of the sign or dot board?

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By Andrew S, March 26, 2010 @ 10:38 am

Ok, to my knowledge, the realllly old buses, before our “recently” retired trolleys had hand-cranked roll signs, but from the trolley buses and D60 and etc had a switch inside to scroll up or down. I’m not sure about the broken flipdot signs though… but i have seen “dots” malfunctioning and not flipping around.

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By Paul, March 26, 2010 @ 1:53 pm

I do remember the latest buses that had the roll signs were motorized. I remember a kid waiting at a loop and watching as the driver would flip a switch. They would look through a small window to see what the main display showed. Of course they would usually go the wrong direction. So you would see the sign stop and then move in the other direction.

But chances are as Andrew said the early buses where hand cranked. This would have been before my time. Not old enough.

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By Andrew S, March 26, 2010 @ 10:39 pm

Hey, by the way, I’m not really old either. Very young in fact. Those buses are decades before me =P, I’m just really interested in transit. My dad has quite a few transit stories, like how the old bell cord on the (maybe) Brill trolleys, or just old buses for that matter, weren’t electric, so it would ring every time it was pulled, not just the first time for the stop. And how some back doors were operated by gates, so you had to push on the gate for the back door to open and if you let go of the gate, the door would slam shut (yikes!). He also said one of the first times he was on the bus (he came to Canada in 1978, the year of the really big snowstorm) it was really snowy and icy (he’d never seen snow before) and he and his brothers were really excited to see all the sparks from the trolley bus because of the ice on the wires. =D

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 29, 2010 @ 2:19 pm

Ric: Here’s the answer to your question about the earlier signage on the D60s et al, from our fleet management group.

The mylar film in the old destination signs was backlit with a fluorescent tube. If the routes changed, the entire
mylar film had to be replaced (expensive!).

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By Jhenifer Pabillano, March 29, 2010 @ 2:23 pm

Ric, to your second question about the flipdots, I would assume the answer is yes, as components of such systems could certainly fail and need replacement.

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Behind the scenes with Trolley Overhead

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